Friday, April 29, 2016

Why Nobody Should Take the Flat Earth Seriously

At least some of you flat-Earthers seem to want to be taken seriously, as if you have some great truth to offer, some insight that the rest of the world is missing, some revelation that is going to save us from, well, whatever it’s going to save us from. But there are several reasons why none of you should be taken seriously.

You’re Wrong

I’ve just got to put that out there first. You’re just plain wrong. The Earth is approximately a sphere, about 7900 miles in diameter, orbiting the sun at a mean distance of roughly 93 million miles. That’s not indoctrination; it’s fact, proven and verified by the process of science over the past couple of millennia. Not only do we have overwhelming evidence that the Earth is a globe, but we’ve used that knowledge in the creation of all sorts of incredibly useful technologies. Yes, satellite communications, weather monitoring, and global positioning systems, but also such ancient wonders as international navigation and the practice of making war at sea. Humankind put the idea of a flat Earth behind them at least several hundred years ago, and in most of the world, thousands of years before that. Get over it.

You’re Dishonest

Instead of trying to come up with any serious evidence, you quote-mine, attribute all science to some vast conspiracy involving the Masons or the Jesuits or the Illuminati, and accuse everyone involved in science of belonging to those groups. You try to claim that famous thinkers from the past would support your ridiculous notion, and you cite experiments that actually show the very opposite of what you claim they show. You post photos that you claim are official NASA photos, when in fact they are just random pictures found in Wikimedia Commons.

You lay claim to knowledge you simply do not have, sometimes to the point of claiming to have worked as a professional in a field you obviously know nothing about.

You dismiss all contrary evidence as fake. You put words in people’s mouths, say you’ve answered questions you haven’t actually answered (while changing the subject to avoid answering), and use tactics in the place of reasonable discourse. And then, to top it all off, you call anyone who disagrees with you a liar, a troll, a shill, and/or a sheep. Why should anyone believe anything you say?

You’re Ignorant

This is assuming that what you’re saying is actually what you believe, which, I am increasingly convinced, is a stretch. In most cases, the argument for a flat Earth boils down to: “I have no idea what I’m looking at, therefore the Earth is flat." And here, for the benefit of those who run across the flat-Earthers and think there is anything in what they have to say, is the meat of the matter.

Some of these people who are posting tweets and videos and memes may actually believe that what they are posting has some real significance, but in general those who do are not the people who created the ideas in the first place. In most cases, those ideas were created by dishonest people trying either to earn a little cash (which is relatively rare, because there isn’t that much to be made from the flat Earth) or to gain some notoriety to inflate their egos or leverage into some kind of advantage at a later date. And I will take that all the way back, over 150 years, to none other than Samuel Birley Rowbotham, itinerant lecturer and snake-oil salesman who eked out a living selling patent medicines and the flat Earth to unwitting suckers.

You see the sun and the moon at the same time, and you think they should not be sharing the sky, or that they should point at each other as if they were the same distance from Earth. You think the moon should be full whenever the sun is out, because you think the Earth’s shadow causes the phases of the moon. You think that there should be a lunar eclipse every time the moon is full because you can’t be bothered to research the orbits of the Earth and the moon.

You watch a YouTube video and think that photographs of Earth taken from space are CGI, or taken out of a round window in a spacecraft that had no round windows. You think a map projection used by several global organizations for its ability to show all the world’s nations on a single flat page is proof that the Earth is actually flat. You blindly invoke perspective to explain sunsets on a flat Earth without finding out what perspective is, and why it works, and that there truly is mathematics behind it.

You claim that video shot aboard the International Space Station is made using green-screens, zero-G airplane flights and even (I kid you not) vertical wind tunnels. And yet you have no knowledge of how that would be accomplished on the scale of output transmitted from ISS each day.

You claim that satellites don’t exist, and that dish tv systems use ground antennae, without exploring just a little to see how ludicrous that notion is. Like creationists, you cite scientific laws like the Second Law of Thermodynamics, without even the slightest understanding of thermodynamics, and you misuse the word “theory,” ignorant of its scientific meaning to the point where you apply it to the flat-Earth hypothesis with no sense of irony.

You eat up every word that Eric DuBay and Brian Mullins say, without studying further to discern whether or not they have any idea what they are talking about. You claim that rockets can’t work in a vacuum, that gravity is a myth, that Antarctica is an ice ring guarded by UN troops, that water is always flat, that Southern Hemisphere flight routes do not exist, that the midnight sun in Antartica, circumpolar navigation, and space flights are all faked. You don’t say any of these things because you have proof. You saw them on YouTube, or in a tweet, or on a website, and you just parrot them, again and again, because, perhaps, it makes you feel smart.

But you’re even ignorant of your own flat Earth model. You point out that sometimes it appears that the moon seems to be in front of the clouds, without considering that the clouds are at most 10 miles up (which you know if you’ve ever flown) and that the flat-Earth moon is supposed to be 3000 miles up. The same can be said of using crepuscular rays as proof of a close sun. And then there’s the GoFast amateur rocket launch, which many flat-Earthers claim “hit the dome.” The GoFast rose to an altitude of 73 miles, and the dome is supposed to be higher than the sun and the moon. Which fanciful story are you going to tell?

You’ll claim that the sun is at an altitude of 3000 miles and post memes purporting to prove this as fact, without bothering to check to see if the information in the meme is even factual, nor to think out how measuring the distance to the sun would work from different locations on Earth. You claim that the moon shines by its own light, without even trying to figure out how moon phases and the shadows of craters would work on such a moon.

In short, you have no facts, no theory, no evidence to back up the silly notion that the Earth is flat—yes, I do mean silly, for it is an idea that has earned no respect. And yet, you continue to put it forth, not even as a hypothesis, but as fact, and more than that, as “truth."

You’re Jerks

Not every one of you, but far more than any of you will admit. You keep telling me that flat-Earthers are nice people looking for answers. But nice people don’t call heroic explorers liars. Nice people don’t call brilliant scientists stupid. Nice people don’t mount personal attacks on someone for publicly disagreeing with them. Nice people don’t troll the accounts of astronauts telling them that all their pictures are fake, and that they never left the Earth. Nice people don’t block users on Twitter, only to talk about them behind their backs, using terms like “Globetard,” “Fuckwit,” “Godless Trash,” and “Atheist Garbage.” Nice people don’t make veiled threats against people who disagree with them, and against their families.

Yes, this is all true. I’ve read all of this from regular contributors to the flat-Earth noise on the Internet.

Want To Prove Me Wrong?

You can’t, and I know it, but if you want to give it a shot, start with this: give up the stupid memes, the uncontrolled “experiments” with thermometers in the shade from the “cold moonlight,” the model rocket engines in vacuum chambers, the zoom shots of ships on the horizon with no data, the computer models that aren’t rendered from the ground so that they can be matched with ground-based observations, and the panning shots of the horizon.

Learn some textbook science. You don’t have to believe it, but if you really want to debunk it, then learn it backwards and forwards. If you’re going to overturn 2600 years of scientific investigation, you have to know it better than anyone. Isn’t it worth that to reveal “the truth”?

Then, do what real scientists would do. Put together a solid hypothesis, make predictions, and then go try to disprove your hypothesis. Flat-Earthers keep telling me that they have tried to debunk the flat-Earth, but they’re lying. All they’ve done is capitalize on their own (and their audience’s) misunderstanding of the science involved. Go measure the curvature as Wallace did in 1871. Take a trip to Antarctica from Australia, take a supply plane to the other side, and fly to Chile. Drive the breadth of Australia and check your mileage against your model. Hell, make it easy on yourself and learn to aim a satellite dish, then install one in London, and another in Quito. Explain the difference. Calculate the distance to the sun assuming a flat plane, from five pairs of locations at different latitudes and explain the discrepancy. Get out there in the field and prove something.


And while you’re laying the groundwork for this startling revelation, keep your mouth shut. Until you have something of substance to present, hold your tongue. Otherwise there is no, nil, nada, not a ghost of a reason for anyone, anywhere on this quite spherical Earth, to take you seriously. 

54 comments:

  1. I can't believe you donated so much to these idiots. I bet they'll say you work for NASA, or the alien moon Nazis, or something....

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    1. Yes, I am in fact regularly called a government shill. Which is not true, and it's a shame because it would probably pay better than anything I'm doing now.

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    2. Globe is bigger than we know. Looks like human eye. We live in a small part (lens) which is a part of the huge sfere. Take a look on the eye and you will see what i mean.

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    3. Badacz, are you suggesting that the world we know is only a small circle on a much larger sphere? Are you aware that the size and shape of the globe has been well-established through careful measurement over the past couple of hundred years? If I were you, I would look into the subject of geodesy.

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    4. The go fast Rocket never hit the dome!How atupid! It slowed d I wn and stopped spinning due to a de-spin mechanism in the bottom of the rocket! It stops it from forward motion and stops it spinning and makes it stable for any experiments it may be undertaking! Didn't hit any dome or ceiling!

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  2. My 25 year old son is a flat earther and I cannot talk to him anymore the anger he has is palatable he calls everyone that does not agree with him ignorant steeple who can not be bothered to do the research like he has done, it is as exhausting as it is sad and terrifying that all of this happend in a mere 6 months. I am a my wits end and had to decide to no longer engage with him but unsure if this is the right approach, any suggestions on how to handle?

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    1. I wish it was as simple as to suggest reading the book or the blog, or a good book on physics or astronomy. Once someone gets into this mindset, they have an amazing ability to dismiss reality in favor of their obsession. Asking for proof of the flat Earth doesn't seem to help, because you'll just be told that it's all around us and we just have to do the research. Research being watching YouTube videos and visiting websites like The Atlantean Conspiracy. And asking them to explain things like sunsets and gravity just results in regurgitation of things invented out of whole cloth that they've seen online.

      It's important to keep in mind that this idea is like a religious conviction to those infected by it.

      It's very frustrating, I know. I've been doing the fight against this silly idea since last summer when I first came across it, and I haven't been able to stem the tide at all. The best I can hope for is to prevent the kind of thing that's happened to your son, and I don't know that I've ever been successful in doing that, even once.

      The best you can hope for is that, somewhere down the line, your son runs across something that he can't challenge, so damning to the idea of a flat Earth that he can't ignore it, and finally he becomes disillusioned. If he will listen to you at all, at least suggest that he be discreet; preaching anything can lose you friends, but preaching flat Earth will earn him a reputation that may haunt him in later years.

      I wish you luck. And please keep us informed if there is any progress or change. Those of us who are appalled by this turn of events would love to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

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    2. Rachel, have you looked at what your son is saying about the shape of the earth and why he is saying these things?

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    3. Sorry to say, theres only 130 years of a globe thoery. Maybe you need to do more reasearch! It started to pick up 500 years ago off of false theories, cults, and ideas that stuck. There is no question about that! Ancient space knowledge has nothing to do with today's science and also all says the earth is flat. 120 scriptures, scriptures that we still cant fully embrace or understand because it to big of a mental concept. If you think Astronomy proves anything then know that the only way to tell how far a star is called "parallax". You find a star, calculate how far that star has moved in six months and that's supposed to tell you how far the star is even though not once did they proved any evidence of how far that star is besides saying its millions of light years. Thats trickery not truth. Earth is flat. Oh and insulting people paragraph after paragraph proves nothing!

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    4. Mr. Darnell, your rambling comments shows an appalling range of ignorance blather. 130 years? Try 2500 years. You shrug off parallax while obviously having no idea how it works, nor that it has nothing to do with whether or not the Earth is flat.

      And I don't offer insults as proof; I offer them as insults. Well-deserved ones at that.

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  3. Thank you for your explanation and kind words, I am afraid my son has chosen a very rough road, he is already preaching on Facebook and not just about flat earth although that is his main interest but other conspiracy theories as well including the illuminati and dangers of fluoride and vaccinations. He is quite nasty about it and even though he promised me some months back he would stay away from social media with these theories he is now posting almost daily new 'research' online. I am now at the point that I am unfollowing his posts and will I am sure have to 'unfriend' my own son all because of this. As he is the type who will never admit he is wrong and will always try and save face no matter what, I think that this may take an awful long time if indeed he ever gets out of this mindset. He is already talking about going to live off grid with his girlfriend and I would not be surprised if this is what ends up happening in the coming months. A very scary prospect for a parent and the feeling of helplessness is sometimes overwhelming. Thank you for trying to fight this please know that reading your posts is helping me a great deal and whilst I will never understand my son's obsession, the flat earth movement or indeed any conspiracy theories at least I can educate myself on the dangers and perhaps in time help him and others. I will keep you up to date on any progress.

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    1. Rachel, have you looked at what your saying is saying about the earth and why? Have you looked at fluoride poisoning, chemtrails, vaccinations yourself?

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    2. You do realize that fluoride, chemtrails, and vaccinations have nothing at all to do with whether or not the Earth is flat. Not that there is any evidence to support the conspiracy theories on those three subjects, but they are hard to investigate scientifically on one's own.

      The shape of the Earth, on the other hand, can be discerned with simple tools at anyone's disposal, if one cares to take the time and energy to investigate honestly, and dig a little deeper than YouTube.

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    3. Hi Rachel. I haven't been aware of this flat earth thing as long as Gordon here, but I have been debating with some of them for a couple of months now. It was nice to see Gordon's site here. It looks like he has pretty much got his finger on the right pulse of everything. It is nice to see a solid voice of reason in the mix.

      I'm sorry to hear you are in this position. I am going to try to give you some ideas that you might be able to try. This is what I would do if it were my child.

      I would first approach peacefully and open a dialog so we could discuss his ideas and concepts. I would first say that I do not want to fight, but I A) want to understand your position and who/what/where/why/and how of everything. In some ways, this information is required so that you can at a later point use this information to dissect it into pieces that makes sense. The eventual goal being to give that experience of running into something that he can't challenge or argue with that Gordon mentions. If you can work with your son in a way that doesn't start a fight, you can help arrange the meeting with this experience.

      I would tell my child that besides understanding his position, that I would want it to be proven to me. Obviously, we can't go into space but we can pick and choose other aspects of flat earth theory that can be debunked in person. If you are that concerned with your son's future and well being, then cost should not be an object. If it were me, I would note down all of his beliefs and choose some of the easier ones to debunk. Some of these can be things like clouds are not where rain comes from, Antarctica is an ice ring around the world where armed guards are forcing people away at gun point. And while you're at it in Antarctica, how about going there during the time of year where it is daylight for 24 hours of the day. That is another flat earth belief, that the 24 hour day is a hoax. You can position this with your child as an experience together to prove flat earth to you, or that you are each taking turns proving your beliefs to each other until one of you is proven right. Tell him you don't want to fight and you want to get along.

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    4. Aside from the beliefs of the actual flat earth science, etc, you should also note the aspects of the conspiracies behind the beliefs. The main conspiracies that I have seen are:

      This may piss off your son at first, so only try going over these points after your son has come face to face with round Earth reality.

      -Some government group (illuminati, freemasons, Nasa, elites, Rothschilds, etc) are all indoctrinating us with the round globe so that they can control us. I have debated with flat earthers on this by stating that my life is no more controlled by the Earth being round than if it was flat. I ask them, how are they controlling me and tell me how the shape of the Earth has anything to do with it. So far, nobody has come back with an answer. In most cases, after trying to say they already answered, or that they have the answer and I'm too dumb or indoctrinated to understand it, or trying to change the subject and insult me, I push them to just give me the answer and they go away.... pretending that they are going to come back with an answer.
      -Nasa is doing it because it finances them and their elite backers. I usually debunk this with the argument that Nasa is a government department. As such, they don't need to exist to get our money because the government already has all of our money paid in taxes. If they already have our money, why in the world would they need to invent and perpetuate Nasa to make money that is already in their possession? Someone tried to say to me that if Nasa wasn't here that our taxes would be less. An unfounded claim. The truth is that our taxes are what they are regardless of Nasa being in the picture or not. Nasa's budget is 17.5 billion a year while our national revenue only at the federal level is 3.6 trillion a year. The Nasa 17.5 billion is chump change compared to what the government already has in their possession and the entire Nasa exists to steal money argument falls apart very quickly.

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    5. Here are some examples of what you can do to get your son face to face with reality:

      -Buy a high altitude balloon (maybe 2 if you want to try it out first before doing it with him. The last thing you want to do is mess up this experiment and have it prove a flat earth to his mind) and a camera. Send it up, make sure it is a balloon that can go high enough to see the Earth's curve, make sure your camera isn't a fish-eye lens, etc. You want the evidence to be irrefutable.

      -Book a cruise/flight to Antarctica for the two of you. Physically go there and see that there are no armed guards. If you go during the winter I believe the sun is out all day. This shows him personally that Antarctica aspects of flat earth are a lie. If you want, you can try to start mapping it out and see if Antarctica starts looking like an Earth surrounding ring or what the maps we have tell us it is. This is an expensive trip but it could help with your son.

      -See if you can participate in some form of cloud seeding to make it rain. Certainly, if he is buying into all of the flat earth nonsense, then he is like most of them and they have started challenging everything beyond the flat earth. So you take take a day where it isn't supposed to rain, show him that. Seed the clouds and watch it rain. That should show that rain comes from clouds.

      -Do some scientifically sound experiments with him. Flat earthers are known to supposedly try experiments that prove the earth is flat and in every case, they either lie, skew numbers, or mostly just have huge gaping holes in their logic as to how physics and other science fundamentals actually work. Try to keep it simple, like a lake test to prove curvature of the Earth. Again, if I were you, I would do the experiment on my own first to ensure I knew what to expect and how all of the aspects of the exercise work beforehand. When going over this with your son you need to be the expert. Not with words, but with working experiments that cannot be denied.

      -Prove satellites exist. Find a satellite provider that is only reachable from the Northern hemisphere. Bring a device that works with that satellite and show that it doesn't work in Antarctica or anywhere in the Southern hemisphere.

      I think you get the idea here. You simply need to unravel a few of the threads. Once you start unraveling a couple of the low hanging fruit items, it is simple to expand that to something like, "Well, if these things that were supposed to be true are absolutely not true as we can see with our own eyes now, then what else isn't true as well?" His flat earth indoctrination sounds like it is pretty deep, so you can only chip away at things with reality on the low hanging fruit items. Slowly get him to see that things he believes are true are actually not as he believes them to be by witnessing it for himself. As he begins to doubt that which he believes so strongly, then perhaps the whole thing implodes on itself?


      Good LUCK!!!!

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  4. You're wrong and I have screen shot this entire blog and will not let you forget it when the truth is revealed in December.

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    1. Don't worry, Jeran, this blog is not going anywhere; you needn't have gone to all the trouble.

      December, now, is it? How will this "truth" be revealed? And haven't I heard that it would be revealed at some other time in the past? What happened to that?

      Sounds an awful lot like predictions of the end of the world.

      Maybe you should stop making predictions and start providing evidence.

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    2. i WAS JUST PASSING BY ON THE MAGIC INTERNET SURFBOARD - iS IT RUDE TO INTRUDE AND ASK IS THIS REAL OR NEED I BE AFRAID?

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    3. Mr. Martin, is seems to be real, although how many people actually believe this drivel is hard to say. Do you need to be afraid? Not of the flat-Earthers, but of the lack of education and thinking ability they represent.

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    4. Thanks Gordon for your quick response - I am not really afraid, and not even really bemused. The fact that I can participate in this "debate???" probably points to an answer to the existence of even a loosely affiliated group of adherents. There must have been flat earthers 25 years ago, and along with violent extremists and people who secretly wore colored buckets on their heads and remained quietly contemplative of their condition in their own village with a mild reputation - enough to keep them happy. Thanks to the reopening of Pandoras Box through the internet, little webs of ideas can flourish and spread, sometimes with disasterous consequences. That includes the good, the bad and the ugly - and the just plain weird. Welcome to the Goldfish Bowl!

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    5. HEY! It's 2017 now! What happened in December? Earth is still round!

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  5. Curious.. how do they explain day and night if the sun and the moon are inside this weird snow globe? Beats me.

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    1. I describe their ideas on this, in part, here: http://embracetheball.blogspot.com/2016/02/sunrise-sunset.html

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  6. Only those who have blind faith in others believe the Earth is round. One of the biggest proofs for me was water level. Water level is always flat. It can not curve around a ball. All oceans, lakes , ponds etc are flat. The sun and moon are much closer and the same size as they appear. There is no gravity. It is only density. Dense objects fall faster than light objects. How can gravity be so strong to hold the world's ocean yet be weak enough to allow fish to swim, or bids to fly or clouds to go in every direction. The blind faith in Scientism is dangerous. Do your own research and think for yourself. Google: Flat Earth if you have more questions.

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    1. You seriously have not read this blog. I have answered your "proofs" of a flat Earth, as have others, many times. No amount of Google or YouTube research is going to change the science, or just the everyday observations, that show us that the Earth is a globe.

      I have done my own research, and I do think for myself, and that's how I know that flat Earth is complete and utter nonsense.

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    2. Mike 0077, level does not mean flat. They are different things. Water does find a level which follows the curve of the earth. Even the surface of a cup of coffee is curved, but the earth's sphere is so large the curve is pretty much unmeasureable over the few inches of a cup.

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    3. Have you ever tried to lift 1 pound? And how about 500 pounds? Was one harder to lift than the other? Yeah. Density and weight are within the mass of the objects themselves, not the force that is called Gravity. Gravity pulls on everything with the same force. Heavier items are not held by a stronger gravity than lighter items. Your understanding of scientific fundamentals is missing and you're wrong. Dense objects do not fall faster than light objects. If they are solid objects that is. A 1 pound weight will fall at the same speed as a 500 pound weight. You don't actually know any science at all and are parroting something you read or saw somewhere else. You are the one with no free thinking. Your thoughts and words aren't even your own.

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  7. If the earth is so called "spinning." East which is claimed. If you fly from New York to California. Flight time is going to be the same amount of time. For instance, Traveling 700mph with earth spinning 1000mph you'd never reach your destination.

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    1. Your comment clearly demonstrates the very essence of the title of this post. Instead of going out yourself and performing real experiments, or at least learning the physics you purport to debunk, you parrot the arguments of other ignorant flat-Earthers, showing yourselves to be the sheep you accuse others of being.

      Come back when you have something real and substantial. And at least know why saying that the Earth is spinning at 1000 miles per hour between New York and California is ignorant nonsense.

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    2. Imagine you are standing atop a train moving at 75 mph. Now if you jumped straight up as high as you could, would you land in the same spot?

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    3. Flat earthers ignore entire aspects of physics with arguments like these. The plane in your hypothetical is contained within the Earth's spinning atmosphere. It isn't sitting in a vacuum that is separate from the Earth's influence. Having actually flown on planes around the world, I can tell you that there is a spin. When you fly from West to East, like from NY to Germany, the flight is shorter than when flying back from Germany to NY. Why is this? What flat earthers are missing is that in the case of both flights, the plane is in the Earth's atmosphere; thus the Earth helps propel us Eastward to Germany in the form of a tailwind. When flying Westward to NY, the Earth's atmosphere fights the plane's speed in the form of a head wind. Flat earthers do not have the fundamental facts required to even begin stating anything as absolute truth. They don't even have an elementary understanding of what is involved.

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  8. I bet you believe in the moon landing too huh I don't think your dumb at all. You just believe everything they tell you. Also traveling back and forth would not end up to be same flight time. Your would is spinning:/ does it stop spinning when the plane leaves the ground? Being in the air for longer than a few hours, there's gonna be some change no matter how slow or fast it spins. Seems to me that your the sheep. Why do you take this so personal? Also why is it that nasa claims they'll soon be able to leave "low earth orbit" which is up to 1200 miles. According to them, the moon is 238,000 miles. Huge difference in distance. They say their stopped by the Van Allen Belts. Did these belts not exist 40years ago?

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    1. This is the last comment I will publish from you if you don't have anything intelligent to say.

      It is the height of hypocrisy for flat-Earthers to tell anyone to do their research, when they clearly have done none at all.

      I'm not going to even answer this comment beyond this, because the answers to your nonsensical statements are there to be found for anyone willing to dig past flat-Earth YouTube videos.

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    2. Gordon don't you think these chaps may be taking the piss?

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    3. John, I think many undoubtedly are. But others (and I think it includes my two latest "fans" above) are actually drinking the Kool-Aid.

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  9. I don't side with either theory.

    First to speak to the spinning globe - inertia - explains the whole plane flying through the air problem. Not proof of flat earth or non-spinning. You definitely and defiantly should read the theory of relativity.

    Second - I don't believe humans have passed through the van Allen belts. Many implications to this belief.

    Third - straight lines are theoretical 2 dimensional constructs. They help us describe our 3 dimensional reality - without actually being a part of it or ever existing in it.

    Four: everyone please keep your minds open. Thinking wholeheartedly and with conviction about matters beyond your scope will only result in division and alienation - we need to stick together in the upcoming years.

    Love each other and play nice.


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    1. Sounds good on the surface. But keeping an open mind doesn't mean you just let anything fall into it; that can lead to all sorts of mayhem. The thing is, that the Earth is a globe is not a matter of belief. It's something that can be, and has been, proven beyond doubt. It can not only be inferred, it can be measured. There is an entire discipline dedicated to that very pursuit. It's called geodesy. Look it up.

      As far as the Van Allen Belts, again, it's not a matter of what you believe. It's something that scientists worked out and worked around. They just did it, and unless you have any proof beyond a vague belief, you are closing your mind to facts, the exact opposite of what you propose.

      As far as loving each other and playing nice, I'm all for it. But the flat-Earth gang has not played nice, and I've grown weary of their tactics and attacks. There comes a time when one has to fight back.

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    2. To add to what Gordon has stated: They are not two theories. The Earth and all of the topics that flat earthers say is not true about the Earth are all proven theories. Everything that flat earthers say are their theories are unproven hypotheses, and really poorly constructed ones at that. Nothing of the flat earthers is a proven theory.

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    3. Sorry to correct your otherwise excellent comment Logan. The spherical nature of the earth is not a theory. It's a flaming fact. It is not a question open to debate. It is as clear as daylight.

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  10. You provided zero proof of the heliocentric theory. Yet denied many undeniable evidence of the FE model. This is not science! What's next? Maybe you can have a show in a a major mainstream media channel and call yourself a scientist! LMAO
    I have seen many evidence and yet more to come. There is no way back. The globe will be one of the most ridiculed objects in the future! So good luck!

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    1. Don't just keep saying there's evidence. Provide it. Go out and test for yourself. Click the "Flat Earth Tests" tab and do one of the three tests I propose. Don't pretend you can overturn thousands of years of science and direct measurement with memes and YouTube videos of horrible science. You want converts? Show real proof, repeatable, verifiable, and definitive.

      Or shut up, because I'm tired of the lot of you.

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  11. If there was any international conspiracy behind the promotion of spherical Earth, this huge number of people and organizations involved in it somehow, should be all atheists (since this alleged conspiracy makes sense only if it's for anti-God and anti-biblical purposes, at least I cannot figure out any other reasons.) Keep up great job, Gordon! I'm with you. Paula

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  12. If the earth is a globe and that is your belief. Then why have you gone through the trouble of creating this web site to denounce people with other beliefs? Who are you working for. Why would you care?

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    1. I am not "working for" anyone; what a ridiculous notion that is, perhaps even more ridiculous than the notion of a flat Earth itself. There is no vast conspiracy to hide the "truth" of a flat Earth; the shape of the Earth is there in plain sight for anyone with the right tools and a modicum of education to discern and measure. It is not a matter of what I believe, it's a matter of what can be proved, and the flat Earth fails on every single count.

      I care because I have children, and I want them to have a future with at least the potential for a better life. That future is not likely if we allow society to slip back into magical thinking. This flat-Earth nonsense is a rather blatant example of a growing bias against science and rational thought which cannot be left unchecked.

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  13. "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy" Thus Hamlet enlightened Horatio. No doubt the future will reveal to those who can see many aspects of the universe that science mis-represents so arrogantly and even with petulant intolerance today. But intuition and common sense would indicate that a flat earth is not one of those grand revelations, and the search for a flat earth will only hinder the pursuit of worthy ideals that may be just as contentious.

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  14. Hi Logan

    Thank you so much for your posts and trying to help me and my family from what is a very stressful time. My sons believes have gotten worse in recent months and flat earth is now unfortunately a small part of his delusions. He is a full blown conspiracy theorist dreaming of living off grid. His delusions go as far and are as diverse as denying the holocaust, 9/11 and Sandy Hook as well as fluoride poisoning to illuminati control to of course flat earth theories It has been a trying for the entire family as we are trying to cope. We are discussing our options with therapists and psychiatrists but it has been extra difficult as his girlfriend enables the behaviour and they live1200 miles away. That said we are not giving up and will continue to try and debunk his many theories. Thank you for your suggestions it is very useful information indeed and hopefully we can come to some sort of a positive outcome.

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    1. Oh dear, Rachelle. It seems like flat-Earth is something of a gateway drug, which is one of the things I've been fearing. If you can believe that the Earth is flat, contrary to so much evidence, then it is easy to believe that everyone (and I mean everyone, even close friends and family) is lying to you. The paranoia runs deep, and unfortunately we're living at a time when it's so easy to find support for the deepest and darkest illusions. Therapists and psychiatrists are of little use if you can't get your son to talk to them.

      And, unfortunately, debunking also does little. This may sound odd coming from someone who had spent so much time debunking the flat Earth (and will, in coming months and years, devote time to debunking other crazy theories), but you have to realize that what I try to do is prevent people from taking this nonsense seriously in the first place. For all the factual information that I and other writers and YouTube producers have presented, I don't honestly think we've converted a single flat-Earther on our own. I like to think, though, that we've kept a few from reaching that point.

      The light at the end of the tunnel is that, of the few Internet proponents of the flat Earth that I've seen finally capitulate to facts, it seems they have all reached that point on their own, after confronting that irreconcilable contradictions in the flat-Earth idea. Unfortunately, though, most of them seem to cling to other conspiracy theories for far longer.

      I wish I had better advice and better news. Hang tough and don't forget to take care of yourself. You can't help others if you, yourself, are not whole.

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  15. Thankyou Gordon for this post, I have only recently become aware of the scale of this flat earth madness. Although I found it laughable at first the wider picture is really quite sinister. Common sense and proven scientific fact countered with opinion and hearsay is a throw back to the dark ages. I fear our children's future. Information is power, and you cannot educate yourself with YouTube and conspiracy websites. I feel for the parents struggling with their children who buy into this flat earth theory and other conspiracies. It must be so frustrating.

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  16. The flat earth system is correct, and I'm sorry but you all have been indoctrinated. And it's sad that everyone is hostile to even the idea that it COULD be flat. It's what you learned in school, it's what the majority believes and it's what the government tells us, so it MUST be correct... Most of you simply have too much pride and too much comfort and happiness in your life to even go and do the research. Why would you take time away from tv? A lot of you wouldn't believe it even if you KNEW it was true because you think it would alienate you from people, even knowing it was the truth. I'm sorry but the GoFast rocket is evidence. No one has yet to debunk that video. It hits something at 73 miles and stops. It would make sense that the dome is about that high, with the plane being hundreds of times wider, as the bible refers to the world as a 'disk' and also 'immovable'.

    You people talk about physics and gravity like you understand what they are. They're just theories in your head. Can anyone explain to me how the earth is spinning many thousands of miles per hour, while at the same time it is orbiting around the sun? At the same time our entire solar system is moving in another direction at an incredibly high speed? Yet we don't feel anything and water stays perfectly still. If the earth were spinning it would have a centrifugal effect and all the water would gather at the equator. Can anyone explain curvature, and how we can zoom in and below the supposed curve with high mag telescopes? More solid proof. Read about the tests done with people holding up flags, going over the horizon, and they should not be visible based on supposed curvature, but they are.

    Most of you just can't conceive of the fact that we are being lied to. That our government and our media LIES to us. And they brainwash people into thinking there are no conspiracies. Some of you people may as well have been born yesterday. You don't know anything about history, you don't know what's been going on in this world. You are asleep, and you don't want to believe anything that would make you uncomfortable, even if it was true.

    As for people saying you can go to Antarctica, maybe they will let you go a little ways in but after that the military is going to grab you. Of course there are no flights over the south pole. Why? And why are flights paths in the southern hemisphere all screwed up in general? Look into it, the course of these flights don't add up. None of it adds up.

    Is it harder to believe the earth is flat, or that the entire universe exploded from nothing, matter and lifeforms just created themselves in this perfect harmony? And we are on a tiny little ball flying through space which stretches out to infinity? WAKE UP. Get out of your manufactured culture and maybe start reading the bible. Just read history and try and understand the world is thousands of years old. People have been around for a LONG TIME. You think nothing has been going on in the last thousand years, and we just arrived here and everything is what it seems, nothin goin on? There ARE conspiracies. We ARE being lied to. But people aren't going to see that unless they actually start doing the research, and like I said people are just too comfortable. Maybe when you all start to starve to death like in the soviet union, you're going to see maybe our rulers have their own agenda.

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    1. Congratulations! Your comment is so full of hubris, ignorance, and unfounded assertions that it will merit its own special blog post within the next couple of days.

      Good work!

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  17. Hi Gordon, would just like to say at the minute I believe the earth is a sphere but after stumbling on to the flat earth stuff I have started to research and question stuff.
    I don't think name calling or degrading people's opions helps things, same on the other side it just sidetracks from the facts with heated debated instead of intellectual debate.
    I too enjoy photography and understand that images can be manipulated used shutter speeds and settings to make flowing water appear misty or using a fish eye lens to make a curve on a straight.
    The point I am trying to make is we are both not scientist's that work on these ideas all day and can only go with the facts told to us either saying the earth is flat or a sphere! But It all goes on judgment how we interpreted what we have be told, theories from years ago have been disproved yearly but at the time they were set in stone the clues in the word THEORY.
    You get the facts online or in books the same as flatearthers do, we are humans and are sometimes wrong even if it's hard to admit.
    I am open minded and feel lots of the flat earthers just swallow everything without questioning.
    The 2 points I feel they have a good grounds for debate is.
    1. NASA have edited live feeds and be seen to use wires!, this can be seen on their website, my question isn't ohhhhh flat earth!! It's why?? A lie gone on too long? Making too much money each year to stop now?? I don't know still trying to find a answer.
    2. Why numerous rockets just abruptly stop in space after spinning very fast in doesn't make sence to me with the guidelines of the physics we are made to believe from young adults.
    I will keep an open mind until one is disproved as I very much believe there's lots we don't know about the world and universe we just like to think we know it all and the government is corrupt for the elite this is true and by the reason alone I would put nothing past them.
    Thanks for starting this post as I have found it very interesting.

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    1. I don't have to be a scientist to know that flat-Earth thinking is utter nonsense. My experience as a photographer and my observations of the sun are quite sufficient. There is no debate about this; the Earth is a sphere, measured and photographed as such.

      Your two point for debate are badly misinformed. The "wires" you see in NASA feeds are products of a deranged imagination. When I see flat-Earthers and moon-hoaxers pointing out harnesses on astronauts, I almost choke with laughter. Of course there are harnesses! How do you think a working scientist in free fall is going to keep from drifting away from a work station or exercise equipment without one? But for faking weightlessness, those harnesses would be useless. They are attached far too low and have only one attachment point. An attempt to "fly" a person with one of those would send them out of control, and upside-down. This is basic physics, here!

      As to the "numerous rockets" that "abruptly stop," you are referring to footage from single rocket, GoFast, which did not, no matter what you've been told, abruptly stop. It stopped spinning (the "clunk" you here is a device called a yoyo despinner, made particularly for that function), but its forward motion continued. You can't tell because it's more than 70 miles above the ground you see. Perspective. Real perspective.

      Flat-Earthers do not deserve respect. They are not truth-seekers doing research. They lie, they make things up, they misrepresent everything science has given us for the last 2500 years or so, and they act like jerks, as I said and will say again. I have seen far too many examples to even give them the benefit of the doubt at this point.

      Going forward, if anyone wants me to retract anything I have said about flat-Earthers, they will have to provide evidence and make their case that they have any basis on which to be taken seriously.

      Parrot the same old lies just isn't going to cut it.

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